Meditation on FR4x

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Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:44 am

I recorded a short track of a song called Meditation, Carlos Jobim.
Using Compression on the accordion solo.
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Meditation.mp3
Meditation FR4x Compression
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by maugein96 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:33 pm

Hi Larry,

Definitely my kind of music, and I loved it! Most of that Brazilian stuff works very well on the accordion.

Some day I reckon I'm going to work out how to play backing tracks, but I've been saying that for years.

More please!

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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by losthobos » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:35 pm

sunnyside up.... :ch
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:23 pm

maugein96 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:33 pm
Hi Larry,

Definitely my kind of music, and I loved it! Most of that Brazilian stuff works very well on the accordion.

Some day I reckon I'm going to work out how to play backing tracks, but I've been saying that for years.

More please!
I enjoy Brazilian beats too. ‘Meditation” is easy for me on Accordion. “Girl from Ipanema” little more tougher because of the chord/bass jumps on left. Maybe someone can share some trick to this?

I am not a fan of backing tracks. I am using a Korg PA3x arranger. Left hand controls the chord changes through midi on whatever style I have selected. Can be done on the BK7m, but think the BK styles is a bit dated now. Even my PA3x is becoming dated. Most accordion players like the BK7m because it is small and gets the job done. Waiting for some new technology on this soon, could happen!

Doing lots of recordings with the Fr4x lately. Finally got an audio interface that has 4 inputs...keyboard left hand/right hand, accordion and mic.
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by maugein96 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:42 pm

Hi Larry,

Girl from Ipanema is probably one of the most "crucified" numbers on the accordion. French guys playing 3x3 bass have a workaround for it, but all my accordions are 4x2 and I just have to do the jumps. A 5 row CBA helps with the right hand, but three out of four of mine are 4 row, so I need to play one of the chords in the downward chromatic run using a different shape from the other 2.

I've heard of a BK7m, but wouldn't have a clue how to use it or any of the other gear you mention. I'm not in the league where I'm good enough to entertain others. I was getting near it, but suffered a severe right hand injury in 1997 and it took me years to be able to get back to playing even simple stuff.

Never tried "Meditation", but it sounds great the way you play it. Might be worth a shot. I rarely use scores, and if I can't work it out in my head it's usually a non starter.

I also like Argentinian Chamame, but so far have only marvelled at players who can do justice to it. It's also on my list to do.

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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by losthobos » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:59 am

I'd imagine Besame Mucho has been more butchered the Girl from Ipanema
But I can't place the chromatic run down in my head....which part of the lyric does this occur under John
I play with big leaps and with practice they're not so big
If you get opportunity try listen to Ludivic Beiers Syracruse....lovely Latin feel....plenty of cheat sheets in youtube for it.....Tangerine nice played in this style..
Larry I'll look at some cheat options for left hand later....
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by maugein96 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:32 pm

losthobos wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:59 am
I'd imagine Besame Mucho has been more butchered the Girl from Ipanema
But I can't place the chromatic run down in my head....which part of the lyric does this occur under John
I play with big leaps and with practice they're not so big
If you get opportunity try listen to Ludivic Beiers Syracruse....lovely Latin feel....plenty of cheat sheets in youtube for it.....Tangerine nice played in this style..
Larry I'll look at some cheat options for left hand later....
Terry,

I'd never heard the English lyrics to this one before, but, at "Oh, but he watches so sadly" there are three chords which run together. In the key I play (F) it is D,C#, and C, unless my guesstimate for them is wrong.

I can usually just about manage the two jumps concerned, but often think there must be an easier way to do it.

As a confirmed 3 and 5 chord musette merchant I never played much Latin stuff as it was altogether too subtle (on the accordion). No problem on guitar where you can see what is going on if you're half familiar with the fretboard, but for non-readers like myself, the accordion versions of most Bossa type stuff are beyond my knowledge. Shown how, I am capable of playing just about anything, but I seldom have the patience to try and work everything out. I can transfer melody lines from guitar to accordion dead easy, but the bass side is just too much hard work.

I've been to Bletchley recently and could undersand quite a bit of how they cracked the "Enigma" code. I asked one of the guides if he had heard of the "Stradella" code, and told him I had a hell of a job with it. He advised me that if it had been used in a submarine they'd probably have it worked out, and filed somewhere. I've been searching online to try and ascertain whether that was ever the case since!

Seriously, patience with accordion basses is my weakest link, and I just want to try and crack on learning melody lines. I've recently decided that I must at least try to work on the bass side, or become an accordionist in one of those Italian bands where the accordionists don't play the basses at all.

Besame Mucho, Tangerine, Syracuse, and other similar stuff is literally music to me ears, and if I can ever afford a left arm transplant from an accomplished accordionist I might consider it.

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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by maugein96 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:57 pm

Terry,

Listened to Syracuse, and even if Mr Beier isn't my favourite accordionist, I love this number (with Angelo Barre on guitar).

Feast your ears on this one in the same vein:- Bossa Dorado with a gypsy feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KmCUK4sLZc

And this one:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zBK2iocdLE

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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Francisco SC » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:53 am

Thank you, Maugein96, that was great too!

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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by JerryPH » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:05 am

Nice! That said, I think that the backtrack sounds like it is the star of the piece, not the accordion, meaning I think that the accompaniment track seems louder than the accordion. Am the only one? :)

Also, don't be afraid to place the entire song there, it's lovely!
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm

JerryPH wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:05 am
Nice! That said, I think that the backtrack sounds like it is the star of the piece, not the accordion, meaning I think that the accompaniment track seems louder than the accordion. Am the only one? :)

Also, don't be afraid to place the entire song there, it's lovely!
Meditation:
I just got a new interface., 4 channel. Now I can put the accordion on a seperate channel and mix with vocals, accompliment. Do this on Cakewalk.
Final mixes always critiqued by others. No one right or wrong. But it is nice to here feedback. In my opinion, if a do over, less aggressive on the bellow expression.
What I am doing now is creating short clips for my web page. As for marketing, a client spends a short time on web pages. Keep clips as brief as possible.
If I played this full song live, would probably add a breathy sax sound.....mandolin...etc.
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by jozz » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:15 pm

for what it's worth

I think the mix is okay as a whole it is clean and pleasant

but if the aim was to let the accordion shine, then you have to give it some presence (level it up, not much)

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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:23 am

jozz wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:15 pm
for what it's worth

I think the mix is okay as a whole it is clean and pleasant

but if the aim was to let the accordion shine, then you have to give it some presence (level it up, not much)
I am compressing the accordion. In this mix I brought up the output gain of the compressor module for the accordion channel. up 6 db. I also compressed the backing channel.
see what you think?
meditation2.mp3
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by jozz » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:46 pm

yes that sounds better to my ears

compression is a lot about personal preference, but why exactly are you compressing the backtrack?

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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by JerryPH » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Keymn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm
I just got a new interface., 4 channel. Now I can put the accordion on a seperate channel and mix with vocals, accompliment. Do this on Cakewalk.
Cool! What kind of interface do you have? I now have a couple, the Mackie 1640i, with 16 channels in and out, that is for when I want to get a little more serious, and now I have the Zoom F4, a 6 channel in, 4 out. Not as capable, but a LOT more portable and even battery powered. :)
Keymn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm
Final mixes always critiqued by others. No one right or wrong. But it is nice to here feedback. In my opinion, if a do over, less aggressive on the bellow expression.
Hey Larry, I wasn't critiquing, just commenting. Your music, your rules and don't take anything I say as anything more than a personal opinion. I wanted the piece to be longer because I was enjoying it!! :D
Keymn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm
What I am doing now is creating short clips for my web page. As for marketing, a client spends a short time on web pages. Keep clips as brief as possible.
If I played this full song live, would probably add a breathy sax sound.....mandolin...etc.
I can see how well that would work.
"Just an opinion" time ( :) )This time I put on a pair of headphones and noticed an effect that made the recording sound like something was missing (and we are talking frations of a hair... lol). Your accordion had a touch of reverb and the backing track had none, so it was off enough that it caught my attention. If you were live and in a location where it was reverberant, the backing tracks would be equally as "echo-y" as the accordion... does that make sense to you? It doesn't mean that they have to match, but a very tiny amount would make the stereo image sound more "real". Just my 0.73 of one Canadian cent's worth... lol

Also, the volume discrepency between the original file's backing track and accordion track had nothing to do with compression but volume. The back-track overwhelmed the accordion. It is better in the 2nd version, but the accordion still needs to be pushed up a bit, letting the main melody and song be the main focus, not the rhythm track. No amount of compression changes on any track would address this... but I think I understand what you are trying to do.

In the end, it is just as you say... there is no right or wrong, just opinions, please don't feel that I am being negative, your work speaks for itself and stands on it's own. :)
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:38 pm

JerryPH wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:03 pm
Keymn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm
I just got a new interface., 4 channel. Now I can put the accordion on a seperate channel and mix with vocals, accompliment. Do this on Cakewalk.
Cool! What kind of interface do you have? I now have a couple, the Mackie 1640i, with 16 channels in and out, that is for when I want to get a little more serious, and now I have the Zoom F4, a 6 channel in, 4 out. Not as capable, but a LOT more portable and even battery powered. :)
Keymn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm
Final mixes always critiqued by others. No one right or wrong. But it is nice to here feedback. In my opinion, if a do over, less aggressive on the bellow expression.
Hey Larry, I wasn't critiquing, just commenting. Your music, your rules and don't take anything I say as anything more than a personal opinion. I wanted the piece to be longer because I was enjoying it!! :D
Keymn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm
What I am doing now is creating short clips for my web page. As for marketing, a client spends a short time on web pages. Keep clips as brief as possible.
If I played this full song live, would probably add a breathy sax sound.....mandolin...etc.
I can see how well that would work.
"Just an opinion" time ( :) )This time I put on a pair of headphones and noticed an effect that made the recording sound like something was missing (and we are talking frations of a hair... lol). Your accordion had a touch of reverb and the backing track had none, so it was off enough that it caught my attention. If you were live and in a location where it was reverberant, the backing tracks would be equally as "echo-y" as the accordion... does that make sense to you? It doesn't mean that they have to match, but a very tiny amount would make the stereo image sound more "real". Just my 0.73 of one Canadian cent's worth... lol

Also, the volume discrepency between the original file's backing track and accordion track had nothing to do with compression but volume. The back-track overwhelmed the accordion. It is better in the 2nd version, but the accordion still needs to be pushed up a bit, letting the main melody and song be the main focus, not the rhythm track. No amount of compression changes on any track would address this... but I think I understand what you are trying to do.

In the end, it is just as you say... there is no right or wrong, just opinions, please don't feel that I am being negative, your work speaks for itself and stands on it's own. :)
Well spoken. On Cakewalk, or any DAW the channels go to a master channel. On the Master channel you can add effects, EQ, etc.on the whole mix. In this recording, I did nothing to the backing as far as adding effects. Playing live is different, every thing goes into my mixer with a common reverb effect, goes out to loud speakers. Those heavy metal rock bands usually play live in the middle of the studio, crank it up. Maybe an idea situation in my recording. But the neighbors will have me evicted...strange, I am more intimated recording then if I was playing live in front of a thousand people? 🤔

There are so many plugins available which drives me crazy.which one to use? Like you, enjoy 😊 messing with the different aspects of recording and playing our instruments. I purchased this audio interface...
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... ax-preamps
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by JerryPH » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:24 pm

I like the Presonus name, they are pretty well respected in the industry. The nice thing about using an interface, is if you need it loud but don't want to disturb the neighbors, just listen through the headphones cranked up to what you like. That is a big advantage using the Roland in this kind of an environment.

I also did not ask how you are using the interface, and I realized that I used my 2 audio interfaces very differently. With the Zoom F4, all I do is capture to file, no effects, nothing. I then open the files (one file per input) in my DAW of choice and work on it there. Nothing is added, it's all about the small tweaks.

When using the Mackie 1640i, I run every channel out from the mixer through the computer (using my plug-in of choice, Izotope's Nectar 2) and back where I hear it out from my sound system and then back in to the computer to get copied to 16 individual tracks.

I don't really need lots of fancy plug-ins, but I liked the Izotope Nectar 2 interface and it makes making any adjustments that I need super easy to use/access/adjust all in one place. I put some effects on each channel, leaving out the compression, reverb and limiter, then I slightly tweak the EQ, limiters, maybe some small amount of compression (because I want volume dynamics in my songs, we are talking 1-2 db adjustments... VERY small), and ultimate output volume on the master based on where the final file is going (output to -1db for my recordings, -13LUFS for YouTube, -15 LUFS for Spotify, etc...).

Here is the big difference, on the Mackie, I multitrack, meaning I add 1 or more tracks during and/or after the mains are created, creating the impression of more people playing than just me alone.

On the Zoom F4, I don't multitrack at all. It's like I use it as a recorder and "sometimes" audio device. On the big Mackie mixer, it adds a ton of other options for me (I can record 2 channels for the accordion, 2 channels for the BK-7m and have up to 12 channels for external expansion MIDI boxes and/or virtual MIDI instruments that I can cut-in and cut-out in the mix that are basically "copies" of the action from my right hand created either live while playing or created later as accompaniment tracks. Because everything is in it's own track, there is ultimate control over it when doing the final mixdown in the DAW.

Of course, you can make some wicked multitracks with your Presonus audio interface too, that is IMHO the fun part of making these creations. Not sure if that would be what you want though... because if someone asked you to play that song live that you had 6 added tracks/instruments of on top of your playing in your online file, that would be a bit of a challenge to recreate in front of a live audience, unless you started using MP3 backtracks in your gigs, which I believe you said you weren't too fond of.

All in all, getting an audio interface opens up a whole new world of high-end recording possibilities. Recording straight in to an audio interface is not very intimidating to me, because I can stop and start again or cutout/play over a section where I made a mistake. Playing live... you make a mistake, it's heard, and you move on. Not a good idea to leave obvious mistakes in your recordings as it is so easy to either tart over or just punch in/punch out an area with a mistake. :)
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:03 am

JerryPH wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:24 pm
I like the Presonus name, they are pretty well respected in the industry. The nice thing about using an interface, is if you need it loud but don't want to disturb the neighbors, just listen through the headphones cranked up to what you like. That is a big advantage using the Roland in this kind of an environment.

I also did not ask how you are using the interface, and I realized that I used my 2 audio interfaces very differently. With the Zoom F4, all I do is capture to file, no effects, nothing. I then open the files (one file per input) in my DAW of choice and work on it there. Nothing is added, it's all about the small tweaks.

When using the Mackie 1640i, I run every channel out from the mixer through the computer (using my plug-in of choice, Izotope's Nectar 2) and back where I hear it out from my sound system and then back in to the computer to get copied to 16 individual tracks.

I don't really need lots of fancy plug-ins, but I liked the Izotope Nectar 2 interface and it makes making any adjustments that I need super easy to use/access/adjust all in one place. I put some effects on each channel, leaving out the compression, reverb and limiter, then I slightly tweak the EQ, limiters, maybe some small amount of compression (because I want volume dynamics in my songs, we are talking 1-2 db adjustments... VERY small), and ultimate output volume on the master based on where the final file is going (output to -1db for my recordings, -13LUFS for YouTube, -15 LUFS for Spotify, etc...).

Here is the big difference, on the Mackie, I multitrack, meaning I add 1 or more tracks during and/or after the mains are created, creating the impression of more people playing than just me alone.

On the Zoom F4, I don't multitrack at all. It's like I use it as a recorder and "sometimes" audio device. On the big Mackie mixer, it adds a ton of other options for me (I can record 2 channels for the accordion, 2 channels for the BK-7m and have up to 12 channels for external expansion MIDI boxes and/or virtual MIDI instruments that I can cut-in and cut-out in the mix that are basically "copies" of the action from my right hand created either live while playing or created later as accompaniment tracks. Because everything is in it's own track, there is ultimate control over it when doing the final mixdown in the DAW.

Of course, you can make some wicked multitracks with your Presonus audio interface too, that is IMHO the fun part of making these creations. Not sure if that would be what you want though... because if someone asked you to play that song live that you had 6 added tracks/instruments of on top of your playing in your online file, that would be a bit of a challenge to recreate in front of a live audience, unless you started using MP3 backtracks in your gigs, which I believe you said you weren't too fond of.

All in all, getting an audio interface opens up a whole new world of high-end recording possibilities. Recording straight in to an audio interface is not very intimidating to me, because I can stop and start again or cutout/play over a section where I made a mistake. Playing live... you make a mistake, it's heard, and you move on. Not a good idea to leave obvious mistakes in your recordings as it is so easy to either tart over or just punch in/punch out an area with a mistake. :)
The reason I got the 4 channel interface is to do demos without overdub. I just play in real time, fix the mistakes then mix...I do not want to give the client a sound bigger then I truly am.
Yes, a recording over live must be mistake proof. The cool thing about my Korg arranger I can output the right hand melody, left hand styles and vocal mic (note: I plug in the vocal mic in the keyboard to take advantage of the harmony processor and effect). So the keyboard takes 3 channels, then I plug the accordion directly into the open channel direct.
Then the DAW is a four track audio recorder. Plus I have Digital out on keyboard and a digital in on Presonus. Another thing to learn.
I had a DAW since early nineties. But not until recently started to use all the features...lots to learn.
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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Glenn » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:24 am

Hi Jerry,
I see you are using a Mackie with FireWire interface. How do you use this these days when FireWire is a thing of the past and no laptops support it? I ask as I was offered a FireWire mixer the other month and I couldn’t see how to shoehorn it into my preferred setup.
I’m still using my Steinberg 2in/2out interface with usb but I’m thinking of upgrading to a Yamaha MG16ux or a Behringer Xenyx UFX1204 which have 16 and 12 in/outs respectively. Have you ever come across these devices in your musical travels?
(Sorry for the subject matter diverging from the OP’s original post).
1) Ballone Burini 46C (4+5) cassotto (LMMH) 3/3 PA; 2) Accordiola Piano V (5+5) cassotto (LMMMH) 3/3 PA;
3) Roland FR8X; 4) Hohner Vox 4k (LMMH) 3/3 CBA

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Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:41 am

Glenn wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:24 am
Hi Jerry,
I see you are using a Mackie with FireWire interface. How do you use this these days when FireWire is a thing of the past and no laptops support it? I ask as I was offered a FireWire mixer the other month and I couldn’t see how to shoehorn it into my preferred setup.
I’m still using my Steinberg 2in/2out interface with usb but I’m thinking of upgrading to a Yamaha MG16ux or a Behringer Xenyx UFX1204 which have 16 and 12 in/outs respectively. Have you ever come across these devices in your musical travels?
(Sorry for the subject matter diverging from the OP’s original post).
I have a Yamaha MG12XU. Unless someone knows different, it is only one channel USB interface no different from your steinberg. I tried the USB on this and it made noise. Probably something I adjust or connections. But do not want to deal with it at this time. Not sure about Behringer?
The mixer I would recommend, if you can afford it, is the QSC Touchmix. Something to look at first. It has seperate channels you can record on if you have it connected to a hard drive. No PC necessary. Then you can connect it to your DAW to mix down each channel. Something I read about, check it out!
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... NIQAvD_BwE
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